A story today in the Dallas Morning News about police having confrontations with two people who were playing with toy guns or pellet guns.
Here’s the thing — and I mentioned it first in my feature for D Magazine about the growing nanny state in Dallas — kids have always played with toy guns, and they’ve always had toy guns that look real. And yet we didn’t have this problem 20, 30 or 50 years ago of police drawing down on them, or the public freaking out when they see someone with a gun.
What’s changed?
(EDIT/CLARIFICATION: I’m speaking more here about the incidents involving kids where the kid gets shot. Happens about twice a year nationally. These two Dallas incidents in the story linked were just jumping off points for the discussion. Thanks to Keith for correcting my course.)
I think the problem is police are too quick to draw down on anyone holding a gun — which isn’t a crime in itself — and people have been programmed to automatically and irrationally fear anyone who has something that looks like a gun. Yes, officer safety is important, but not as important as the rights and lives of those they’re sworn to protect and serve. Irrational fear leads to irrational actions.
And boy, have we gotten a lot more irrational about inanimate objects.
Oh, and for those who say that toy guns today look real where toy guns from the 1950s and 1960s didn’t look real, here’s a sampling of toy guns from the 1960s, and here’s some toy guns from the 1950s.
Awesome ad for the Dick Tracy .38 snub and Tommy Gun.
Why do you think the police and public have this “irrational” fear of people holding guns? Where do you think that comes from?
Because too many have been taught that only police can be trusted with arms, and that a person isn’t “safe” unless he’s been rendered disarmed, and that their safety is more important than Constitutional rights.
This is also why too many in various police departments execute no-knock warrants, throw grandmothers to the ground in handcuffs, shoot family dogs, and complain about 4th amendment prohibitions against illegal search and seizure.
Sometimes I think NWA got it right. :/
“kids have always played with toy guns” yes they have.
In both of these instances the police were responding to a call because someone else was alarmed enough to call the po po. One of these was an adult at the age of 26 and the other was 15, which in this day and age is stretching the definition of a “kid.”
I’m as anti gun control as one can be, and a staunch believer in police accountability, but when the cops get called over a person brandishing a weapon, and upon arrival that person is waving around what certainly looks like a gun and doesn’t cooperate with the police-what exactly should their reaction be?
In both of the incidents in the DMN article, the cops DID NOT drop the hammer on either of the “suspects.” It doesn’t appear the officers were too trigger happy.
“I think the problem is police are too quick to draw down on anyone holding a gun”-how long should an officer wait? Too quick to drop down doesn’t equal too quick to fire.
Keith — fair points on both counts. I guess I was thinking more of the bigger picture of incidents where true kids get shot. It happens about twice a year nationally. (Thankfully, we haven’t had many here.) Not where adults or near-adults simply get drawn on.
I’m duly corrected, and the edit/clarification is highlighted in the main posting. Apologies for being sloppy.
Oh yeah it happens, and when some trigger happy cop blows away 10 year old Timmy with his red rider because the cops an abject coward, that officer needs to be held accountable.
Still, your point was correct and I’ll try to be more deliberative in how I write these things.
Unfortunately, when it comes to comparing out-of-hand urban yesteryear with city life today …’toy’ guns or otherwise a prime example…is many times like comparing Pat Boone to 50 Cent. On the surface it seems like apples and apples but it’s not even fruits of a feather.
I grew up not only playing with toy guns but shooting real ones and today I would be hard pressed to tell the difference…orange tip of no.
Supporting Keith’s fine tuned points: To present this where the cops are cowards to have to decide, in a split second, whether that’s a real gun or not is flipping libertarianism on its ear. If you were a cop, going to a rough apt. house, where teens were waving…and yes pointing…guns at you…the father and husband of those you love, people who depend on you…. would you realllllllly expect those officers to inquire whether that’s a ‘real’ gun or no? Or would you rightfully ask yourself how in the hell adults allow their children to ‘play’ with ‘toy’ guns while not instructing them that you NEVER ‘aim’ that ‘toy’ at an adult figure unless you and that adult are both in the game.
How many times have I been in ….i.e. south Oak Cliff, southwest Dallas, in southeast Dallas circa the far eastern end of true Pleasant Grove near Balch Springs etc. and seen a teen or preteen with a ‘toy’ gun …in a Stop and Go or Dollar Store….and thought why? And thought how this is a accident waiting to happen where someone will be killed and the parent (s) and family will grieve while a police officer’s life and career is decimated in a split second that should have never timed out.
Several years ago, during a combo yard sale/burger grill/beer guzzle, I let a friend run around the vacant lot next door firing my paintball marker. He had a great time wasting a hopper of paintballs and the last of my CO2 on a bunch of trees – until the police arrived.
“…people have been programmed to automatically and irrationally fear anyone who has something that looks like a gun. …Irrational fear leads to irrational actions.”
It would appear that Trey and this little gaggle of “libertarians” are the attempting to spread as much “irrational fear” as possible. Burn a Prius, get off my lawn, don’t mess with me I’m a gun-totin’ badass. Why would anyone have a fear of something that looks like a gun? You’ve answered your own question a thousand times over – why would YOU carry a gun if no one feared it?
“why would YOU carry a gun if no one feared it?”
Wow.
You really don’t get it at all, huh Bob?
Seriously — how old are you?
“why would YOU carry a gun if no one feared it?â€
Oh, I get it alright, I’m just trying to see if you have any semblance of self-awareness. Answer my question – if guns are not feared by those who would cause cause mischief, why would you personally want to carry one?
Answer the question – why do you carry a gun? And don’t just say “because it’s my right.” Why do you choose to exercise that particular right? Given your juvenile macho posturing, my fear is that you’re just another garden variety sociopath masquerading as a “libertarian.” Stop cloaking your ignorance as self-evidence and answer the question.
Bob’s kind of a douche isn’t he?
Bob, my man, why the hate brother? Why can’t you rationally argue your case without the vitrioil?
I know a lot of folks that carry guns, and none carry it to instill fear in another; they carry to defend themselves and their loved ones if ever necessary.
Trey’s very gracious here on his blog allowing respectful dissent, why don’t you show a little restraint while in some else’s “house?”
Trey’s a good man. Last winter I had an issue, and Trey with Amanda Tackett, were there for me and I’ve never forgotten it.
“I know a lot of folks that carry guns, and none carry it to instill fear in another; they carry to defend themselves and their loved ones if ever necessary.”
Didn’t Tony Soprano say the same thing? Trey says “people have been programmed to automatically and irrationally fear anyone who has something that looks like a gun.” We can argue about who’s programming whom ’till the cows come home. But it’s not irrational to fear someone who has something that looks like a gun. It’s as simple as that. Unless of course, you’re the Terminator or Dirty Harry. If Trey wants to play one-note gun libertarian, he should expect some grief for it. I for one would not feel safe around hotheads like Trey with concealed handguns, no matter how pure his alleged motives are. It’s still Law of the Jungle.
“But it’s not irrational to fear someone who has something that looks like a gun.” Bob
So do you quake in your shoes when you see a cop? Do you freak when you see a guy lookiing at a shotgun at Sports Authority? Do you refuse to drive past indoor ranges?
It’s not irrational to fear something that looks like a gun if it’s shoved in your face in front of the ATM machine; it is irrational to fear an inanimate object.
Since the 1968 Gun Control Act Americans have indeed been programmed to fear guns, just as Americans are told repeatedly that the NRA is an evil lobbying firm that resists “sensible” gun control.
I can’t name a time when the Left has eased up on gun control issues. The “68 GCA wasn’t good enough, the ’94 AWB was a mere “step” according to some. Put me in the paranoid column if you must, but I have no doubt the Left will never stop until we have total gun confiscation like the “enlightened” countries Europe.
Trey can certainly come on here and defend himself, but I gotta ask, where do you come off accusing him of being a “hothead”? Because he argues with you?
“Trey can certainly come on here and defend himself, but I gotta ask, where do you come off accusing him of being a “hotheadâ€?”
You would think that Trey would defend himself, but Trey then seems to prefer to lob unsubstantiated grenades over the transom and then ignore the blowback. Hotheads rant about minimum wage TSA ‘thugs’ delaying them at the airport. Hotheads exhort others to go out and burn Priuses to show their love for imported oil.
But the problem with Trey – and you – is this willful obtuseness when it comes to guns. Sure it’s irrational to fear inanimate objects. It’s those quirky people holding those inanimate objects that we rationally fear. As you say, it’s not always irrational to fear a gun at an ATM. Why would anyone advocate concealed handguns, on planes, of all places, if they didn’t think the “evil doers” had a perfectly rational fear of people who carry things that look like guns? How many people die every year because they DON’T have a rational fear of guns? If the answer to crime is concealed handguns for all who want them, then we are truly lost as a culture.
“How many people die every year because they DON’T have a rational fear of guns? ” Bob. Your rational fear isn’t my rational fear.
Bob, no one told you to carry a gun; in fact I’d prefer you didn’t. Folks like you take comfort in the false faith that the police wiil protect you 24/7.
Why not handguns on planes? If a legal CHL holder is boarding a flight that takes him to another state that has CHL reciprocity with Texas, what’s the big deal? What’s the difference between flying, driving or taking AmTrack?
Do you think stinky guys with boxcutters on 9 11 would have been so bold if they thought some of the passengers might be armed? You can’t measure a negative, you can’t articulate what didn’t happen, but how many post 9 11 hijackings may have been prevented because Abdul wasn’t sure he wouldn’t get his mellon splattered all over the salesman from Des Moines before he earned his 72 virgins from an Air Marshall?
“If the answer to crime is concealed handguns for all who want them, then we are truly lost as a culture.” Bob.
Yes the answer to crime is concealed handguns to all who want and QUALIFY to carry them, and yes we are truly lost as a culture, but not because of CHLs.
My son who is 11 years old was stopped by a police officer today because he was playing army outside. Apparently several people called because they thought he was carrying a “real gun”. I have restricted him from playing outside anymore with his fake guns because of fear that some trigger happy cop or other parnoid freak is going to shoot him.
Ridiculous.. this world has lost all common sense.